Curse

Society · Sep 11, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Well, I actually thinked 'bout subj before ever played NightFall (Grim Reaper and stuff), but Dervishes made my really want to try using scythe as a weapon. I already know 'bout kamas\kasurigamas and glaive's origin, but what 'bout classical scythes ? So far I've only found 2 low-quality vids on YouTube about it, so any information are welcome.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Sep 11, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Yes acually long ago in the fields of farms, an elite unit of farm workers would smite down teh wheat and other crops with scythes. Wheat is a very dangerous enemy.

fishy go moo · Sep 11, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I think in RL scythes would suck just my opinion. Warhammer would be good even if the blow didn't kill them the shock would since they are wearing all the armor.

Richardt · Sep 11, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

From Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor:

Quote:

Scythe: In the middle ages the scythe was frequently used as a weapon, the blade being mounted in line with a long straight shaft.

In fact the pictures given more closely resemble that of a glaive, instead of the blade curving back, it's more or less straight.

The scythe in GW and what we normally associate with a scythe has the blade perpendicular to the shaft, which makes it hard to fight with. The fighting style of the Dervish in GW is purely fiction and leaves gaps in your defenses which can and will cost you your life.

Little Shenanigan · Sep 11, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

my dad actually own a scythe...it's really sharp and heavy

he used it to cut down the neighbor's weeds in their yard (they left their house to sit there and so no one has been mowing their lawn)

Society · Sep 12, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Can someone translate ?

Quote:

The scythe in GW and what we normally associate with a scythe has the blade perpendicular to the shaft, which makes it hard to fight with.

Halebard's blade are perpendicluar too, so what ? And... After Kuwas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNx3...ature=related), battle scythe (classical) will look just fine.

zwei2stein · Sep 12, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Yes acually long ago in the fields of farms, an elite unit of farm workers would smite down teh wheat and other crops with scythes. Wheat is a very dangerous enemy.

Actually, no kidding these guys pretty much wielded scythes, pitchforks and stuff and managed to beat pretty much every armed force in Europe (= crushades against em where everyone joined up.) that attempted to subdue em: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite

their modified their farming stuff to be more effective thou. Scythes with straightened blades to be more of halberds/glaives, etc ...

newbie_of_doom · Sep 12, 2008, 08:29 AM // 08:29

old skool farmer weapon

DarkNecrid · Sep 12, 2008, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Get a real scythe and not the type of bad ones in game.

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 12, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Back in the day, peasants were required to fight if an invading army came along, and they would bring just about anything sharp and pointed to the battlefield (since they had no real weapons), including scythes and other "tools of the trade".
This would make the knight look really good, as they, on their armored warhorses, wielding real weapons, wearing armor and having 15 years+ training in combat could harvest farmers all day long.
Farming (in any age) would not really be my first choice of profession, though there's less chance of being killed by a knight today i suppose

zwei2stein · Sep 12, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

Back in the day, peasants were required to fight if an invading army came along, and they would bring just about anything sharp and pointed to the battlefield (since they had no real weapons), including scythes and other "tools of the trade".
This would make the knight look really good, as they, on their armored warhorses, wielding real weapons, wearing armor and having 15 years+ training in combat could harvest farmers all day long.
Farming (in any age) would not really be my first choice of profession, though there's less chance of being killed by a knight today i suppose

Actually, your typical knight was useless when he encountered light infantry (= organized peasants and farmers, see hussite victories).

Heavy armor is nice, but it restricts movement and sensory input a bit too much. Anyone with reach weapon can laugh at them and dance around till they find opening.

They cant really plow throught lines of peasants if there is even basic fortification (i.e. popular vagon fort - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagenburg)

Knight is romantic and whatnot, but useless in real battle outside "shock and awe" value.

Abedeus · Sep 12, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Well, scythes weren't very skilled weapon, but try to underestimate a pissed off farmer which was using that scythe longer than you could drive a bike.

Or, as a matter of fact, a butcher using a very large, curved hook used to kill cows... Pulling it out from the body is really painful.

Richardt · Sep 12, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Society

Halebard's blade are perpendicluar too, so what ? And... After Kuwas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNx3...ature=related), battle scythe (classical) will look just fine.

I assume you mean halbard, which isn't a scythe weapon-basically the halbard is an axe mounted on a long shaft. Read the Wikipedia description. In fact, read the Wikipedia section on the Scythe-the "War Scythe" is exactly as described in Stone's Glossary.

And I watched that video of yours. From the description:

Quote:

The full kata (form) using the kuwa (hoe) as a weapon, a technique primarily developed in Okinawa.

1) Hoe=/=Scythe

2) Most of the fighting done was utilizing the haft of the weapon, not the blade. Most of the blade work seems centered on delievering the finishing blow so to speak (with a couple exceptions).

And zwei2stein is correct about the majority of late period calvary. It was mostly the French however that highly utilized the concept of a mounted knight-in other places (such as the Holy Roman Empire) preferred more infantry tatics.

However I should point out that the concept of "heavy armor" is more of a late period conception. Earlier period knights wore basically a padded gambeson underneath a shirt of maille-and while a shirt of maille can be weighty you hardly feel the weight once it's on and distributed. In the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) they would enhance this by placing a basically a coat of plates over the maille-either made of metal or leather.

And speaking from personnal experiece (I've made, worn and fought in armor for the last 7 years or so) once you get trained in using armor it's not all that bad. Again-this is from an earlier period standpoint.

Later period mounted armor usually employed the gambeson, maille, and plate armor on top of that. In addition the helm was the "great helm" standard-basically imagine a bucket on your head with eye slits and breathing holes. This was normally worn on top of a maille coif and a padded hood. So this did deaden alot of noise and restricted your vision a great deal. But the armor was such that it could protect you from a wide variety of blows. The typical method of killing a knight was to knock them off their horse, pin them down and shove a slender blade into the eye slit. To accomplish this, you normally had to use either a reach weapon (such as a polearm) or kill the horse-which is an easy feat as the horse isn't as armored as the knight, and most barding didn't cover the legs, making the legs an easy target.

fishy go moo · Sep 12, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

You said you have worn and fought in armor for the last 7 years, do you fence?

Richardt · Sep 12, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I fight Heavy Weapons in the Society for Creative Anchronism (SCA). I fight mostly broadsword+shield and spear (both long and short). I've also played with maces, axes and various polearms, but none of those really caught my attention as well as sword and spear.

I have tried fencing before-both classical and rapier-and it wasn't my cup of tea. The blade itself felt way to light and I felt a bit naked without my maille.

A11Eur0 · Sep 12, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

ROFL this thread is full of fail and geekdom.

I'd like you to wear that set of armor and wield genuine weapons and actually have to fight someone to the death. Honestly...

MisterB · Sep 12, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I'd much rather pick up a quarterstaff and train myself in its use than any form of scythe.

I believe a quarterstaff would have been an excellent match for the Dervish profession, come to think of it. A quarterstaff was often employed versus multiple foes, and practitioners would spin the staff and their bodies in combat. One problem is the lack of any means to deliver a deep wound, so I guess a bladed weapon makes more sense in the game, at least with regards to the skills.

Of course, a handgun trumps all the weapons in this thread in 99% of real-life circumstances.

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 13, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Actually, your typical knight was useless when he encountered light infantry (= organized peasants and farmers, see hussite victories).

Organized peasants? Not in all those medieval battles I've read about buddy! You are talking about a special breed of Czech breakaway religious types, who developed a special tactics based on the fact that they faced (almost) only knights and they (almost) only had infantry. The Hussite, cannot be said to be the average of the 15.th century. Besides, they had no peasants armies, only trained units of infantry!

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Heavy armor is nice, but it restricts movement and sensory input a bit too much. Anyone with reach weapon can laugh at them and dance around till they find opening.

And the knight peasants milling about are just going to let them do that,- right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

They cant really plow throught lines of peasants if there is even basic fortification (i.e. popular vagon fort - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagenburg)

Yeah - because when the nobles levied their peasants, they always fought from fortifications! You are talking about a tactics that were not widely used. I'm guessing you wrote a paper in school about the Hussite!

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Knight is romantic and whatnot, but useless in real battle outside "shock and awe" value.

Quote:

It seems likely that changing army structures and economic factors led to the decline of knights, rather than any obsolescence in their effectiveness. By the sixteenth century, the concept of a combined-arms professional army (with improved, trained infantry tactics) first developed by the Swiss had spread throughout Europe. The rise in professional armies, with its emphasis on training and paid contracts - rather than ransom and pillaging which reimbursed knights in the past - and the high costs involved in outfitting and maintaining knights’ armour and horses led many of the traditional knightly classes to abandon their profession.

But before that, they were very effective!

Society · Sep 13, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

I assume you mean halbard, which isn't a scythe weapon-basically the halbard is an axe mounted on a long shaft.

No, I mean halberd). And I know that it's an axe's evolution. We talking 'bout blade's orientation an possiblity of effective fighting with perpendicular blade orientation if you already forgot.

Quote:

Most of the fighting done was utilizing the haft of the weapon, not the blade. Most of the blade work seems centered on delievering the finishing blow so to speak (with a couple exceptions).

Well, it's surprised me as well. Basically, in RL almost every good blow with good blade will finish opponent. Instant Death mod).

Quote:

The typical method of killing a knight was to knock them off their horse, pin them down and shove a slender blade into the eye slit. To accomplish this, you normally had to use either a reach weapon (such as a polearm) or kill the horse-which is an easy feat as the horse isn't as armored as the knight, and most barding didn't cover the legs, making the legs an easy target.

Battle hammers are good choice too). Well, helm most likely won't protect user from any good blunt weapon.

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 13, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

I assume you mean halbard, which isn't a scythe weapon-basically the halbard is an axe mounted on a long shaft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Society

No, I mean halberd). And I know that it's an axe's evolution. We talking 'bout blade's orientation if you forgot.

You are talking about the same weapon. It's only spelled halbard in British - the original spelling (used everywhere else, since it's not a British weapon) is halberd. I actually though it was spelled halbard as well,- learned something new.
Btw,- Guru's spell check agrees with Society as well,- so you might have taken a few seconds to verify your info before trying to correct another person, especially when your own spelling comes up with red underlining and his doesn't.